DEF016 - lyn ulbricht Interview
ross ulbricht and the silk road
Interview date: Tuesday, November 26th 2019
Interview location: Tucson
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Lyn Ulbricht. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email us. You can listen to the original recording here.
In this interview, we discuss the #FreeRoss campaign, the Silk Road, Ross’ case and the broken US correctional system.
Interview transcription
Lyn Ulbricht: 02:09
When this all happened, I had faith in our system, I had faith in the justice system. I went into the trial thinking of course it will be fair that Ross will be treated fairly and it's all going to work out fairly and I got to learn up close and personal how wrong I was and what I've learned through the past six years of being thrust into activism and taking up the challenge is that I believe we are at the tipping point in history. We are at a crossroads and we can either go towards more innovation and freedom and free choice or we're going to have to take the crossroad of surveillance state, government control, and suppression and it's time to decide and do something about it for our own future as well as the future of our children. That's how I see it.
Peter McCormack: 03:01
Good morning, Lyn, nice to see you again.
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:02
Great to see you Peter as always.
Peter McCormack: 03:05
Two years in, I think it's... because I should remember your birthday. Is it April?
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:10
It's March.
Peter McCormack: 03:10
March that's it. I was close.
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:11
And so is Ross'. Ross is the day after me.
Peter McCormack: 03:13
Well, so we did our first... first interview on his birthday.
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:16
Right.
Peter McCormack: 03:17
Do you remember?
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:17
Oh yes, I remember in Austin.
Peter McCormack: 03:20
In Austin, yeah. My first trip to Austin, and I've interviewed you twice.
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:23
You brought me flowers. It was very nice.
Peter McCormack: 03:26
You'd never let me forget that, but we've done two interviews, but we've probably met up five or six times or to know you quite well. I'd consider you a friend now.
Lyn Ulbricht: 03:34
Same.
Peter McCormack: 03:35
...as well as someone I worked with but as you are aware, I have a new show now called Defiance, which is more about activism. There is no story that I would rather tell on the show than this. It's probably the most important thing I've reported on if you call it reporting, but if I've reported on in the last couple of years, and people always ask me about my favourite interviews and I always refer back to the first one we did because that interview took me from being this hobby podcaster to realising I'm going to cover important stories. I took that one very important. That's very important to me.
Peter McCormack: 04:10
I want now to tell the story to another audience, which I hope will eventually be quite a significant audience and they can all understand and hear about the story of Ross. We'll touch on a number of things we've touched before because some people won't know the story but anyway, so firstly I should ask, how is Ross?
Lyn Ulbricht: 04:25
Well, Ross is hanging in there. He's very strong person. He wrote an essay called five keys to inner strength, I learned in five years in prison. I recommend reading it. It's very helpful. It's been helpful to me and he applies that. At the same time, I won't deny that this is incredibly challenging. He's often extremely bored. He's often very frustrated because he's kind of cut off and it's tough. Overall, Ross is hanging in there. He's still himself. He hasn't lost his sense of humour. He hasn't lost his personality. I think that sometimes happens in prison after a long time, but it's tough.
Peter McCormack: 05:04
Okay. We should start from the outset so people understand the context of this, that Ross currently faces the rest of his life in prison. His punishment was a double life sentence plus 40 years.
Lyn Ulbricht: 05:16
Without parole.
Peter McCormack: 05:17
Without parole.
Lyn Ulbricht: 05:18
No possibility of parole, which no one in the federal system has. They took away parole in the '80s.
Peter McCormack: 05:23
That puts the context of why I'm asking how Ross is. How has he been, but also I do want to ask how you are as well because the way I see it for you, you are... it's not the same as Ross, but you have your own sentence now because whilst he is on the inside, there is a wall between you. This is your son and you're on the outside, but it's your own sentence that you are also living with this. Is that a fair thing to say?
Lyn Ulbricht: 05:48
Absolutely. I think anyone who has a loved one in prison is also doing time. There is no doubt. Absolutely. I have my cause to get him out and I won't give up but yeah, it is... I'm hoping it's not a life sentence for me too.
Peter McCormack: 06:03
We hope not and you will always have my support to do-
Lyn Ulbricht: 06:06
Thank you.
Peter McCormack: 06:06
...everything I can to help. Another thing, just to add in to the backstory anyone who doesn't know this. The very strange backstory of this. We're going to talk about a website called the Silk Road. I have a bitcoin show, which you've been on twice. It was at Silk Road, which was where I discovered bitcoin. I was previously a drug addict. I used to use the Silk Road to purchase drugs and for me it was actually in some ways very helpful for buying a better quality of drug but the most important thing is when I was in the depths of my addiction, there were very helpful forums on there for me that were very supportive.
Peter McCormack: 06:40
To come full circle to actually meet you and talk to you, there's a lot of context in this for me and to add that, when my mum was sick and we wanted to buy her cannabis oil, it was the innovation of a dark market that allowed us to buy something for the treatment of her cancer, which was deemed illegal. It's a very important story but we're going to tell the backstory and then we're going to talk about the legal process and then we'll talk about what the hopes are for the future and how people can potentially help so-
Lyn Ulbricht: 07:10
Let me just say about that, real quick is that I was told by Kevin McKernan who works with cannabis medical research that many people on Silk Road when it was taken down were getting CBD for their children's life threatening seizures and that put the children in danger. They were extremely distraught and they had to either move to Colorado or do something drastic. That is never discussed in the media ever, of course but similar to your mom.
Peter McCormack: 07:37
Well, I guess the problem with that is people look for the glamor side something I've been very critical of, Nick Bilton about who... and I refer to his book as a novel because-
Lyn Ulbricht: 07:48
That's right. It's fiction.
Peter McCormack: 07:49
It's fiction because he's written something which is even with the title, American Kingpin, it's used to glamorise it and people are essentially... essentially it's headline grabbing and let's refer to what it is, it's clickbait.
Lyn Ulbricht: 08:02
Exactly.
Peter McCormack: 08:03
But the important stories are hid in the background. There's a similar problem we have in the UK because cannabis is still illegal. There are very limited cases in terms of medical support, but there have been cases of parents who have gone to Holland to purchase cannabis for the treatments of their children. I remember one specific story of a young boy who had a very severe form of epilepsy and the cannabis oil treats that.
Lyn Ulbricht: 08:28
Exactly.
Peter McCormack: 08:29
...but that was taken at the airport and a very distressful situation. Now, I think that one was overturned and they are allowing him, but it's still a very... it's an isolated case and what we're talking about here is the individual freedom to make choices for your own body and for your own life and this is how I see Ross as a libertarian, as somebody who supports freedom and free choice, not as this mastermind criminal that he's been painted.
Lyn Ulbricht: 08:59
Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 09:01
Let's do the back story. I think a probably a fair starting point, if you can stall to the point that you first became aware because I think that helps put the context of the story together. When you were first over at where Ross had been arrested and how you became aware of what's actually been happening.
Lyn Ulbricht: 09:20
Okay. I would like to talk about his motivations as well, but we can do that too. We found out about it from a call from Reuters. A Reuters reporter called our house and told us that Ross had been arrested. They told us about this murder for hire smear that has now been not even charged and my life has never been the same since that phone call. I turn on the TV and George Stephanopoulos is going, well, Ross Ulbricht, the person who created Silk Road... I'm like, wait a minute, what? And then I'm like, don't we have trials where you're innocent until proven guilty?
Lyn Ulbricht: 09:51
Apparently that is a very antiquated notion and then emails started pouring in, phone calls started pouring in, media was driving by our house, filming our house, our neighbours who were freaking out, they were knocking on our door. I mean it was like a siege and I just lay... that's when I became an activist really. It was the next day really because I was lying in bed. This is not who Ross is. I've got to speak out and so with the help of a high school friend of his, we just put up a one page little web thing saying Ross is this, Ross is this, Ross is not this. Ross is not this and that was my first speaking out about it, and it's grown to a movement that has almost a quarter of a million petition signers and a lot of support for clemency for him.
Peter McCormack: 10:41
Well, so we should go back a step still. Some people won't actually know what the Silk Road is.
Lyn Ulbricht: 10:47
Sure.
Peter McCormack: 10:47
Do you want to talk about what the Silk Road is-
Lyn Ulbricht: 10:51
Right.
Peter McCormack: 10:51
Sorry, was because it's no longer available.
Lyn Ulbricht: 10:53
Right. Well, of course at the time I didn't know, but it was... Ross conceived of this because he was a libertarian on fire for freedom. Ron Paul supporter, student of Austrian economics and wanted people to have a experience of a free market, a truly free market in privacy where they were free to have that. He invented or created a video game to that end, didn't work out, went to the Internet and created this website and that was his motivation.
Lyn Ulbricht: 11:23
It was product agnostic. Whatever was sold on there didn't matter to him. He didn't do it to be a drug kingpin. That's absurd. I mean, when he was arrested, he was living with three roommates in a flat, didn't own a car. It's like really, he's a kingpin, but the site was as a free market, but not totally because it was based on the non-aggression principle of voluntary interaction and so that meant that nothing could be sold or exchanged there that harmed a third party.
Lyn Ulbricht: 11:55
For example, there was no child pornography or anything related to pedophilia allowed, no weapons, no stolen property and this is all on the government's own evidence that was exhibited at trial. I mean, there's no question about it. You wouldn't know that from a lot of the media by the ways, as you say, clickbait, much more exciting to talk about things that were not even on there than... well, yeah, there was raw milk and there was books and there was electronics and there was... It was an eBay that was a private eBay. Okay.
Peter McCormack: 12:23
Well, I've had to regularly fight back against lies on Twitter and regularly debugging-
Lyn Ulbricht: 12:28
I know you've really supported us on that. I really appreciate it.
Peter McCormack: 12:31
Well, I really don't appreciate people like David Gerard, who... another person who also tried to profit of continuing lies, but often-
Lyn Ulbricht: 12:40
I don't even know who that is.
Peter McCormack: 12:42
He wrote a book, Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain but there's two consistent things whenever I will put out a free Ross or try and keep it in the kind of public eyes that, well had labeled child porn and murder for hire of which both, you know, regularly have to debunk but one of the other interesting things is to point out to people is like the ability to buy drugs is obviously a headline grabber, but people will miss things like for example, you could buy a Bible on there and-
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:08
I didn't know that.
Peter McCormack: 13:09
I thought you told me that. That's funny.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:12
Well, my memory is such that I could have forgotten it.
Peter McCormack: 13:15
But you could say for example, buy a Bible on there and books. There was a big section on books as well.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:20
Definitely books, electronics, art, clothing.
Peter McCormack: 13:23
The point being is you could buy anything you wanted with a voluntary arrangement.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:28
Correct.
Peter McCormack: 13:29
And that was Ross's goal. It was a kind of a libertarian freedom website, but also it had lots of useful information on there.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:37
Let me just say about the drugs too, because the Carnegie Mellon did a study and the most commonly exchanged drug was user amounts of cannabis.
Peter McCormack: 13:45
Interesting.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:45
You would never know that from the prosecution or the trial or the media either and harder drugs were much fewer.
Peter McCormack: 13:55
In some ways though it doesn't really matter.
Lyn Ulbricht: 13:58
No, it's your choice.
Peter McCormack: 13:59
Yeah. It's your choice and that's one of the most interesting things and as I say, one of the reasons I'm such an advocate supporter of yourself and your campaign is because as my mother was dying, we wanted to give her a cannabis treatment. There was no way we can get it because it was illegal.
Lyn Ulbricht: 14:13
Outrageous.
Peter McCormack: 14:14
...and this allows us to bypass what we see as a poor government rules, and when it's your mother dying, you don't care. Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 14:22
Oh really. How does a bureaucrat in Washington get to say what these parents of children with life threatening seizures get to do, for example. I mean really?This isn't right.
Peter McCormack: 14:37
Well, and the funny thing is we're now seeing the world slowly wake up to this. I mean, most states have either legalised or decriminalised cannabis and the world has not collapsed. Cities haven't collapsed into anarchy. There may be a slight smell of cannabis in the air, but we do not have anarchy from this and actually it's probably been good for the government because of the tax revenues as well. I saw-
Lyn Ulbricht: 14:59
Well, Colorado is not going to make it illegal. They'll fight that tooth and nail. They get a lot of revenue.
Peter McCormack: 15:04
They're looking to go a step further I think and also I think-
Lyn Ulbricht: 15:07
Psilocybin or something?
Peter McCormack: 15:09
Mushrooms I think is the next thing they're campaigning for and I'm also aware that there are trials now for the use of MDMA for treating-
Lyn Ulbricht: 15:17
PTSD.
Peter McCormack: 15:18
PTSD for war veterans. I've read about that. We're clearly seeing a shift in society whereby... I mean politicians are in a difficult position because there's still a stigma around drugs, but we are seeing a shift in society where people are realising that actually we should not demonise all drugs and actually there can be a benefit to people. It's therefore unusual because we have people... we do still have people in prison, right, for cannabis crimes.
Lyn Ulbricht: 15:46
Absolutely. A friend of Ross in Florence where he was before is doing life for marijuana because it's his third strike in Colorado where it's legal because it's a federal case and I just want to say about the drug war because yes, I can understand concern about drugs and I personally do believe it's a choice but the point is the drug war doesn't work at all.
Peter McCormack: 16:08
Nope.
Lyn Ulbricht: 16:08
It hasn't stopped people from using drugs. They can't even keep drugs out of the prison. What are we going to do? Just keep building more and more prisons and packing people in there, nonviolent drug offenders who now are over 60% of the population of the prisons. It's such a monster that is metastasising and creating, well, it's 800% growth in prison population since the '80s I believe, and it's 800% more people. If the prison population were a state, it would be bigger than 11 US states.
Peter McCormack: 16:44
That's unbelievable.
Lyn Ulbricht: 16:45
It is.
Peter McCormack: 16:46
Well, the war on drugs has failed.
Lyn Ulbricht: 16:48
Totally.
Peter McCormack: 16:48
We know from history prob-
Lyn Ulbricht: 16:49
Well, it's made them a lot of money.
Peter McCormack: 16:51
Yes. Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 16:53
A lot, but it's failed to stop drug use. Yes.
Peter McCormack: 16:56
And history has taught us that prohibition fails in-
Lyn Ulbricht: 17:00
Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 17:01
...in almost every case but let's keep with the story. You obviously became aware, you first obviously got to see Ross to find out and you had to... I guess you had to go through a process of kind of comprehending what this all was. Coming to terms with it and then coming to your own conclusions and I assume that was a journey for you and your family to even just get your head around it all.
Lyn Ulbricht: 17:25
Oh yeah. It was kind of like... if you've had someone die that's close to you, it's kind of like you've go to sleep and then you wake up and you aren't quite remembering this awful reality that's just suddenly happened and then you remember it was like that. I would wake up and go, oh my God, Ross has been arrested in this high profile situation. I mean, and then I'd have to think, how can this be? It takes an adjustment. I don't now. It's been over six years.
Peter McCormack: 17:57
Ross was arrested and if we move to the original trial that... remind me, was that in New York?
Lyn Ulbricht: 18:05
Yes.
Peter McCormack: 18:05
It was a New York and for a reason.
Lyn Ulbricht: 18:06
Yeah. He was brought to New York. He was arrested and lived in California. He had no connection to New York whatsoever but I've been told if the Southern District of New York wants something, they get it, and he got, you could say extradited to New York City.
Peter McCormack: 18:21
And is the reason New York was able to do this, is there would have been users of the website who were from New York.
Lyn Ulbricht: 18:27
Their reasoning was, and they brought in a guy who was admitted junkie who claimed that he bought heroin on Silk Road and sold it in New York. He perjured himself at least three times during his testimony but they can always get somebody to say what they want and they reward them. That's what informants are for, which is another whole thing we could someday talk about how bad that is because the incentive of course is to say whatever they want so you get your benefit.
Peter McCormack: 19:01
Okay. It went to trial.
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:04
Yes.
Peter McCormack: 19:05
Let's talk about the trial itself. There's a few key components to it and you will remember it better than I will because there's so much to-
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:13
It's blazoned on my mind for the rest of my life.
Peter McCormack: 19:16
Well, there's so much to it. It's actually a very complicated case-
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:19
Very.
Peter McCormack: 19:19
...because of the amount of details to it, but he was originally charged with... was it five charges?
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:26
I think it might've been seven, but some of them were redundant, which is what the government does. They pile it on to make it sound worse than it is. By the time he was sentenced, it was fewer charges, but I think it was seven.
Peter McCormack: 19:42
Wire fraud, money laundering.
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:44
Let's see. Trafficking narcotics on the Internet.
Lyn Ulbricht: 19:48
They threw on the kingpin charge very last minute as a pressure thing. It wasn't originally one of the charges, because of course it's absurd.
Peter McCormack: 19:55
Well, explain the kingpin trials. People don't understand. That's usually reserved for the likes of El Chapo.
Lyn Ulbricht: 20:00
Right, who by the way got half the sentence Ross did.
Peter McCormack: 20:02
Which is still unbelievable.
Lyn Ulbricht: 20:04
Unbelievable.
Peter McCormack: 20:04
Unbelievable.
Lyn Ulbricht: 20:05
Yeah, but it has its own life sentence. That's why it's double life and to call a website host or creator a kingpin, especially one that believes in voluntary and interconnection and the non-aggression principle is obviously a ploy on the part of the government and really wrong, but they do so much that's like that. Let's see, and then there was hacking. Not that he hacked, this was all basically conspiracy except for the kingpin charge, it was all conspiracy to do these things by having a platform where other people did it and they use the conspiracy laws to put lots of people in prison that haven't actually even done the deed but in any case, in Ross's case, he didn't.
Lyn Ulbricht: 20:50
They're not accusing him of hacking. There was software that could be used as hacking on the site. It was never proven to have been used for anything from Silk Road for hacking but they threw that on there. Same with money laundering. I think it was for exchanging fiat money for bitcoin and so on, and then there was fake ID, same thing conspiracy never proven, just that there were, I guess someone selling them on there and I don't know, I'm probably forgetting some. I mean it's just-
Peter McCormack: 21:18
Well, I'll list them all on the website.
Lyn Ulbricht: 21:19
Okay.
Peter McCormack: 21:20
And the show notes, and I'll also include the Railroaded series, which I do recommend people do check out.
Lyn Ulbricht: 21:24
That's great. Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 21:25
Judge Forrest, who we obviously detest. The judge for the case also threw in the murder for hire charges.
Lyn Ulbricht: 21:33
At sentencing.
Peter McCormack: 21:34
That was at sentencing.
Lyn Ulbricht: 21:35
Yeah. She allowed the prosecution to discuss it to the jury. They said, now listen, we're not charging him for this and no murders happened and we're not asking you to rule on it, but just trust us. He did this, he did this. He's part of this anonymous chat that was never attributed to Ross and never proven to be and this is outrageous to prejudice the jury this way. She allowed it, so yeah, but it's right in the transcripts... and of course no one was murdered. I see people go, he murdered people. He's in for murder. I'm like, who got murdered?
Peter McCormack: 22:07
Well, the state of Maryland dropped the charges conveniently after the Supreme Court's decision.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:12
Yep.
Peter McCormack: 22:13
But also-
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:13
...and that was all based on the corrupt agents.
Peter McCormack: 22:15
Yes.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:16
Material but anyway.
Peter McCormack: 22:17
We'll come to that. I also spoke to Curtis Green.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:20
Oh, you did? Good.
Peter McCormack: 22:21
Yeah, spoke Curtis. I said, we should make people aware. He was an administrator.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:25
He was a top level administrator. Yeah.
Peter McCormack: 22:28
He does not believe that Ross was involved in any murder for hire.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:33
No, and he looks forward to when Ross gets out and they can hang out and talk and-
Peter McCormack: 22:37
Well, we all.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:37
And his wife supports that too.
Peter McCormack: 22:38
We all look forward to it.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:39
I mean, but yeah but you weren't alleged victim of this person. Yeah. It's kind of unusual for someone that's supposedly a target of murder for hire to want that person.
Peter McCormack: 22:50
It's a huge broad set of charges. It's obviously very scary.
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:55
Very heavy duty. Yeah.
Peter McCormack: 22:56
Was there a plea offer?
Lyn Ulbricht: 22:58
All right. That gets slightly complicated too and I have... it's a question of well, was Ross ill-advised. The initial plea was 10 years, but the prosecution would recommend life. Ross's lawyer said, well, there's no ceiling here. There's not like 10 years... or you have a maximum, there's no maximum. He said, don't do it. Then the prosecution came back and said well if you won't do it, we're going to add kingpin charge. That's when they added the kingpin charge to add the pressure. That has a 20 year mandatory minimum as opposed to 10 and we're still going to recommend life and his lawyer still said, no, we need to go to trial and now I really questioned that was wise because when... in our country now, it shouldn't be this way.
Lyn Ulbricht: 23:48
If you go to trial, you will pay a penalty. You will get a much, much harsher treatment than if you plea and that's why 98% of people plea even to things they didn't do. Curtis says he pled to things he didn't do.
Peter McCormack: 24:02
Well. I've seen quite a few now, true crime/incarceration type documentaries and I've seen people confess and accept plea bargains for things they've not committed to because of the fear of the full trial and what happen if they lose.
Lyn Ulbricht: 24:19
And they probably will lose and top prosecutors bully them and threaten them. They threaten Curtis's family.
Peter McCormack: 24:26
I guess you believe even the process now needs reform?
Lyn Ulbricht: 24:29
Oh, my God. Yes.
Peter McCormack: 24:32
Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 24:32
They're hijacking our freedom. They're hijacking our whole everything that's good about our country. This is wrong.
Peter McCormack: 24:41
I asked you this question the first time I met you and I'm going to ask it now because other people might not have heard that interview and I think it's a fair question, but I'm a big supporter of Ross. I'm a big supporter of freedom and what he did but at the same time we live in a society, we have a construct and we have laws. Do you believe Ross should have received a punishment and do you believe he should have been convicted of something?
Lyn Ulbricht: 25:11
Yes, we have laws. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with him and many, many, many others is that I don't think nonviolent people need to be in a cage. We have, and as Ross said, it's kind of old fashioned. It's the dungeon model, right? It's like we could save tons of money, put ankle bracelet on someone, have them be... how about do restitution? How about do community service? If someone steals my car, I would way rather have them have to buy me another car than pay my taxes to go put them in a cage. I'm generally opposed to nonviolent people being in prison. One thing I can say unequivocally is that, and this is the Sentencing Reform Act, it says a sentence should be sufficient, but no longer than necessary.
Lyn Ulbricht: 25:58
That has been accomplished with Ross. There is no way in hell that he will come out and create another Silk Road or come anywhere close to breaking the law. It's done, but our system is not really about correction. They say it's correctional. That is ridiculous. It's about punishment and retribution, revenge. It's a vengeance system and it's very bad.
Peter McCormack: 26:25
I think many of us have agreed, all people I've spoken to have said, I think time served now is clearly enough.
Lyn Ulbricht: 26:32
Oh, God. Yes.
Peter McCormack: 26:32
Enough, and I think many of us have said that and I also-
Lyn Ulbricht: 26:36
It's his youth... it's his 30s. It's like he was 26 when he did this. Very young and it's his 30s or at least half his 30s and part of his 20s. That lesson gets through.
Peter McCormack: 26:52
And there's a tweet from Mike Novogratz. I don't know if you know Mike. He's a money guy from New York. He put out a very interesting tweet once with regard to Ross. It's always stuck with me. He said, nobody is being served by keeping this young man in prison and I'm with you. I mean, I don't know Ross personally, he did right to me that time, but my expectation is that if he was to come out from prison, I guess he would possibly be an activist, certainly be an educator and he would take his lessons to create a better world.
Lyn Ulbricht: 27:25
Absolutely. That's what he wants to do. He wants... now that he's learned what he's learned he wants to work for criminal justice reform, but also he would be... love to be talking to you, for example about bitcoin and all of these ideas. He's constantly coming up with ideas and he's thwarted a lot because he's cut off and he doesn't have even a keyboard. He's a smart guy. He's got a lot to contribute.
Peter McCormack: 27:51
Well, again. I'm going to ask you about that as well. Just want to give people a kind of summary of what happened. Obviously he was sentenced.
Lyn Ulbricht: 28:00
Horrible.
Peter McCormack: 28:00
He was found guilty. As you said, Judge Forrest brought the murder for hire and sentenced-
Lyn Ulbricht: 28:05
She justified her sentence with it even though it was never ruled on by a jury, which is a violation of the Sixth Amendment of constitution.
Peter McCormack: 28:12
How many appeals did you have?
Lyn Ulbricht: 28:15
Well, we had the initial appeal in the Second Circuit, which includes New York and it took place in New York and they turned it down and then, although the judges did say, well, we might not have given this sentence, I don't think they liked the sentence, but their point was, well, it's at her discretion and it shouldn't be in a judge's discretion to destroy someone's life totally under these kinds of charges, in my opinion but they go, well, you got to change the law and I'm like, okay. Then we went to the Supreme Court and that was over... once you get to that level, it's more big issues. It's not so much the details of the case.
Peter McCormack: 28:54
Fourth and Sixth Amendment.
Lyn Ulbricht: 28:55
Correct.
Peter McCormack: 28:56
Yes. Which was the access to his files.
Lyn Ulbricht: 29:01
Well, okay. The Fourth Amendment was that without a warrant, without probable cause, no oversight, the government still because of the way they ruled can't or they didn't take the case can't come... go into any of our Internet activity and take whatever they want in secret and use it against anyone they want. They can blackmail anybody they want, and this is relevant information. It's our sexual orientation, our political views, our religious beliefs, our medical records, all kinds of things and it's all based on this doctrine called the third-party doctrine, which is now almost four decades old, the ruling based on the dial telephone, which said, the government can get the phone number of something you've dialed, just the number. No other information and that's okay without a warrant and it has morphed into this free for all on their part and they don't have to get a warrant.
Lyn Ulbricht: 30:00
They didn't get a warrant. That was argued, but also not only the Internet, they searched his router, his private router. That's not under the third-party doctrine, but okay and then they also directed a directional antenna at his home and tracked him within his house room to room without a warrant and they could be doing it to us right now. No problem. No oversight whatsoever. This is because the courts and the laws are not keeping up with the digital age and so they're grappling with it. A lot of the people making these laws and judges are older people who don't have a real concept of what's going on in the digital world and I feel like it's a real door for them to expand their power to take away our freedom.
Peter McCormack: 30:51
Well, so one of the things I've noticed spending a lot of time coming back and forth to the States, and I actually read the constitution last night.
Lyn Ulbricht: 30:58
Wow.
Peter McCormack: 30:58
Well, not all of it. I've read the amendments themselves just as-
Lyn Ulbricht: 31:01
The amendments are the best part.
Peter McCormack: 31:02
Yeah, but it's a very interesting constitution. It does feel at times a little bit out of date, but at the same time the baseline of freedom and no overreach from the government is very interesting but what it feels like is that the constitution itself now is constantly under attack.
Lyn Ulbricht: 31:19
Totally. It's being shredded. I mean, and the drug war is part of that because there's a drug exception where if it's a drug case, the courts will be like, oh, well that's a drug exception. We don't need to worry about the Bill of Rights.
Peter McCormack: 31:33
One other part we should talk about with regards to the case and then we'll move on from this, because I-
Lyn Ulbricht: 31:38
Can I say something real quick about-
Peter McCormack: 31:39
Of course.
Lyn Ulbricht: 31:39
...the Sixth Amendment in front of the Supreme Court. The reasons the Sixth Amendment was written was to protect the accused from rogue judges, rogue prosecutors for bypassing a jury and saying, well I don't care if it was in front of a jury. I don't even care if he was acquitted or it wasn't charged like in Ross's case. I think it's true and I'm going to sentence based on this. This is an absolute outrage and a violation of one of our most basic rights to have a jury trial and Judge Forrest did that.
Peter McCormack: 32:09
Why do you think Judge Forrest was able to get away with us?
Lyn Ulbricht: 32:12
Get away? I think judges and courts are getting away with all kinds of outrageous all the time.
Peter McCormack: 32:17
Right. Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 32:18
I mean we tried, we fought it and the Supreme Court didn't seem to care. Actually the sixth Amendment issue is something Judge Scalia before he died was very concerned about. He goes, our Sixth Amendment is being ignored or shredded and he wrote about it. It's not a new thing and it happens all the time where judges just take matters into their own hands past a jury. It's like jury trials, jury, any of this is going... it's so antiquated and quaint but it is one of our fundamental rights.
Peter McCormack: 32:50
The last thing I want to ask you about, because I will encourage people who have an interest in this to go and listen to our first interview because we go into a lot of detail about the case and I will encourage them to listen to Railroaded in our second interview where we talk about the Supreme Court's decision, because we got a lot more detail about that. I'd rather focus on the future in this interview but the other thing I think we should cover is the role of the rogue agents and what happened there.
Lyn Ulbricht: 33:14
Okay. Well, the main point about them is there were these two corrupt federal agents who are not allowed to be known to the jury. The fact that the jury knew nothing about them is the real key here but yes, there were two agents. One was DEA, Carl Mark Force, the other was a secret service agent also working for the NSA and they were at the core of the investigation and they through a backdoor got access to the site. They had an unfettered access. They could act as Dread Pirate Roberts, the main administrator that Ross supposedly was the only one. They could act as DP... called DPR. They could act as DPR. Many other aliases.
Lyn Ulbricht: 33:51
They had passwords, keys. They could change content in the Silk Road marketplace and the forums to say whatever they wanted on there. This was all used as evidence to the jury and they had the ability, I don't have the proof they did it, but they could and they also use it to steal money from different accounts on the site.
Peter McCormack: 34:11
They were stealing bitcoin.
Lyn Ulbricht: 34:11
Bitcoin, yeah and... Oh, but a lot, a lot of bitcoin, right and they are in prison now. One is doing six years, one is serving eight or something like that and they admitted to undermining the investigation and all that and this was not permitted to be known to the jury.
Peter McCormack: 34:28
And one of the most important facts in all of this is that the website was accessed by administrator whilst Ross was in jail.
Lyn Ulbricht: 34:38
Yes. Well, yeah. There's tons of actual evidence, anecdotal evidence that Ross was not the only operator of this site at all and while he was in jail, actually solitary someone using the DPR account logged into the forum.
Peter McCormack: 34:52
Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 34:52
This was discovered after trial though.
Peter McCormack: 34:56
Yes, of course. Well so much was.
Lyn Ulbricht: 34:58
Yes.
Peter McCormack: 34:58
I remember reading about the metadata. I remember reading lots of things and there's also concerning things about the case and it's very complicated.
Lyn Ulbricht: 35:04
It is complicated.
Peter McCormack: 35:05
We can go into a lot of detail, but we can't now undo that past. Let's talk about what are the remaining legal avenues for Ross?
Lyn Ulbricht: 35:15
Well, there's only two things left. One is called a habeas petition, which is actually a civil case. It's not even a criminal case and that is in process and that is basically, you can go back to the court in New York again and say we didn't get effective assistance of counsel. The counsel was ineffective and in this case he should have advised Ross to plea. That's the bottom line of that, that Ross would not probably be serving a life sentence if he had, because he'd probably be serving a long sentence but that's different than your whole entire life that you're going to die in there.
Peter McCormack: 35:52
That gives you an end goal.
Lyn Ulbricht: 35:55
Yeah and you can continue to try to mitigate that, but double life plus 40 years. Anyway. The other way is a clemency commutation of the sentence, preferably to time served from the president of the United States, and so we're working very hard to get the president's attention on this through networking, through people who may be can help through putting together a clemency package to present when we can, and me speaking out as much as possible and also now having supporters show up at President Trump's rallies with signs and talking to the media and saying... because I want him to realise there is a movement here that he should pay attention to. That it's an important thing and it sets a terrible precedent, also Ross's sentence, and we have this petition which I encourage everyone to please sign it.
Lyn Ulbricht: 36:51
Go to freeross.org and sign this petition. All you have to do to sign the petition is think this sentence is wrong. That's all we're asking. We're not saying Ross did nothing wrong. He's not saying he did nothing wrong. We're not saying anything except this is ridiculous sentence, is really a dangerous sentence for all of us but in any case, it has almost a quarter of a million signatures now and so we want him to be aware of that but... so now we have a group actually today in Florida.
Lyn Ulbricht: 37:19
Thrust of it is coming from the bitcoin centre in Miami. Great bunch of people. If you're ever in Miami, please look them up. They're total supporters as are most blockchain and crypto people. I mean at least the ones I meet. I'm sure there are exceptions, and they're going to go as a group with video crew and signs and so please meet them. Well, this is probably going to happen later, but I'm working on literally a nationwide campaign trying to get different people. Please, if you want to help me with this in your state, please get ahold of me. There's a footer, every page on freeross.org has a way to contact me.
Peter McCormack: 37:59
They've reached out to me because I was going to go to the rally.
Lyn Ulbricht: 38:01
Oh they reached out to you.
Peter McCormack: 38:03
I heard about the rally and I was going to go because I wanted to go to a Trump rally and just see what the description-
Lyn Ulbricht: 38:08
I told you on Twitter too.
Peter McCormack: 38:09
Was it you as well, but then-
Lyn Ulbricht: 38:11
I saw that.
Peter McCormack: 38:12
I decided I'd rather come here and talk to you and actually see you in person because I prefer the in person interviews but I... so in terms of clemency, I mean it is tough. I'm sure there's lots of people-
Lyn Ulbricht: 38:22
Very tough.
Peter McCormack: 38:23
...who are looking to the president for clemency but one of the interesting things about Trump is that he is interested in prison reform.
Lyn Ulbricht: 38:31
Yes. He's shown that. He pushed the first step back through. He's very happy that he gave commutation to Alice Johnson who was also accused of drug dealing and murder for hire by the way and that was dropped in her case too because this is one of their favourite little tricks. He's also pardoned other drug offenders. I don't know, he seems to like to help people out this way and have a heart for it.
Peter McCormack: 38:58
But he's also... for all these criticisms and there are many, and I agree with a lot of them, he sometimes does appear to be rational. It appears that he understands that the cost of keeping nonviolent people in prison is disproportionate.
Lyn Ulbricht: 39:15
Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 39:16
And one of the other really interesting things about following you for the last two years and getting to know you is, and it's a complicated one because obviously you would love to change the past. You do not want Ross in prison, but at the same time it's given you a different purpose in life because you don't just campaign for Ross.
Lyn Ulbricht: 39:34
No.
Peter McCormack: 39:34
You are now a campaigner for prison reform.
Lyn Ulbricht: 39:36
Absolutely. Well, you can't go in there a year after year and get to know them, the families, and see the children and the pain that's being inflicted on them and know that statistically they're more likely to end up there themselves. That there's feeding this horrible machine that's making money and grabbing power and not really helping anything. How could we possibly forget those people? This is really a disgrace. Our country... United States of America should not be the largest incarcerator in the world.
Peter McCormack: 40:06
2.4 million or something like that.
Lyn Ulbricht: 40:08
Oh, God. Something like that.
Peter McCormack: 40:10
But also it's not just the numbers, how they're incarcerated as well. I remember you telling me about the hotel team and-
Lyn Ulbricht: 40:19
They love euphemisms.
Peter McCormack: 40:20
Well, and one of the things that I found very concerning is that you can commit a crime in one prison, one state, and you can be moved to another state prison, which is hundreds of miles away from your family, which is distressing for your partner. It could be distressing for your children and look, and I understand if you're a murderer or rapist, have done something very seriously, so be it, but if you've committed a nonviolent low level crime to be moved that away from your families is unproductive and distressing, and as you said, it feeds the system.
Lyn Ulbricht: 40:50
Yeah and not everybody... I mean, we have an Internet business. I don't have... lost our house a long time ago. I can just move around following Ross. I mean, this is my third place to be and that's a sacrifice and it's tough to go to new places but I feel like it's so important for him to have that lifeline, have that visiting and so many of these people are just warehoused and forgotten and it's horrible and they are nonviolent and hey look, is 10 years enough, is 20 years enough? Do we have to have life or virtual life? I think it's over 200,000 people serving virtual life. They're going to die in there. That's what that means. Their sentences end strictly life but they're going to die in there.
Peter McCormack: 41:31
But one of the biggest problems for reform is the prison guards association. The lobbying group.
Lyn Ulbricht: 41:36
Oh, yeah. They're one of the biggest lobbyists against legalisation, so is the police unions. It's a jobs program. Big time.
Peter McCormack: 41:41
Because it would devastate communities built around prisons.
Lyn Ulbricht: 41:44
Well that, and yeah. A lot of people would have to get a different kind of line of work.
Peter McCormack: 41:49
And there's three places. New York, Austin and here now in Tucson.
Lyn Ulbricht: 41:55
That I've lived?
Peter McCormack: 41:55
Yeah.
Lyn Ulbricht: 41:55
And Colorado.
Peter McCormack: 41:56
And Colorado.
Lyn Ulbricht: 41:57
I was in Austin when it happened. Moved from Austin. Yeah, so.
Peter McCormack: 42:01
Let's talk about prison itself because again, Ross is not a violent person. He's a pacifist and the prison he was in in Colorado, was that the... I remember you explaining to me. I can't remember the time.
Lyn Ulbricht: 42:16
Well, it's... well.
Peter McCormack: 42:18
It's a max.
Lyn Ulbricht: 42:19
It's a maximum. He's in a maximum now, but it's very different. The one in Colorado in Florence is the site of the supermax and where he was was the next level step down from the supermax where they put their most violent gangs, dangerous criminals and others all mixed together and so there's a lot of violence there. There were stabbings, there were murders, there were beatings, there were... all the time. They had lockdowns downs constantly. Here Ross is there just because of his life sentence. When he came in, they go, what are you doing in here? They couldn't even... they were like, what? Because his security level, which is how dangerous he is, we'd put him in a camp.
Lyn Ulbricht: 42:59
Even with his charges, I mean there's no violence whatsoever, but that's where he went and for a year and a half Ross had to deal with. Was thrust into the situation and had to deal with being in this kind of environment and he did it, but what happened ultimately was he refused to assault... be involved in an assault on another prisoner and that means you're a target next. You will get beaten.
Peter McCormack: 43:26
He had to volunteer himself into-
Lyn Ulbricht: 43:26
Protective custody.
Peter McCormack: 43:27
Protective custody.
Lyn Ulbricht: 43:28
Which essentially is an eight by 10 metal box with no window. He was in there for three and a half months and then thankfully he was moved to Tucson and Tucson is where they move people who are going to be a target in the system and so it's not violent. It's people who violence is being inflicted upon, so it's a very different environment thankfully.
Peter McCormack: 43:51
He was quite liked in the Colorado prison, wasn't he? He was quite popular because he's smart. He was... wasn't he helping other people?
Lyn Ulbricht: 43:58
Yeah, he helped... absolutely. He got along. The thing is Ross is very likable. Has a big heart. I mean he was a friend with a gang leader. Of course. Here I am. I'm like, I brought him up to have a good peer group, blah blah blah and now he's... but he says, "Mom, gang leaders are people too." He helped them write letters. He helped read over things. He helped explain things. He's highly educated and a lot of people in there are not and so he did and some of the guys who were in there much more experience watch out for him, but he also didn't get involved in a lot of the dramas that are in prison like drugs and running up gambling debts and things like that that lead to fights. He's smart enough. Probably wouldn't want to anyway, but he managed.
Peter McCormack: 44:44
He's now in Tucson. What does he access to and what restrictions does he have?
Lyn Ulbricht: 44:48
He can go outside at certain times. Maximum, you don't get to go anywhere you want at any time. They have certain moves where you can move and they're scheduled so he has it all timed. He goes outside, can walk at the track and stuff like that. He can play some sports inside also. He's joined a band and he's learning the bass guitar.
Peter McCormack: 45:11
Nice.
Lyn Ulbricht: 45:11
They're actually putting on a concert this weekend for the other prisoners.
Peter McCormack: 45:16
Wow.
Lyn Ulbricht: 45:16
Yeah, I mean it's... yeah, it's good and he has books and he reads and writes. For a while he was studying artificial intelligence and physics and of course the law. He doesn't watch TV or... he tries to be very productive not that he never does, but I mean... and I don't blame guys who do because it's an escape but he doesn't. He tries to stay very constructive. He works out. Plays Go. He's got a student that he's teaching Go and student's getting really good.
Peter McCormack: 45:48
Is that like checkers kind of Japanese game.
Lyn Ulbricht: 45:50
Yes. Chinese.
Peter McCormack: 45:52
Chinese game.
Lyn Ulbricht: 45:53
And it's super hard apparently.
Peter McCormack: 45:54
Yes.
Lyn Ulbricht: 45:54
I don't know anything about it but-
Peter McCormack: 45:55
It's the one of the AI computers they taught.
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:00
Oh, okay.
Peter McCormack: 46:01
To win the Deep Blue or whatever the IBM machine. I can't remember, but I heard about this. I know of the game. Okay, and he meditates.
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:09
Oh, of course. He meditates. He meditates an hour every day. He also meets with a guy who they talk about the Bible. The only book he was allowed to have in the shoe where he was in Florence was a Bible so he was reading the entire Bible.
Peter McCormack: 46:23
Is he religious?
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:24
I would say he... he talks about his faith in the five steps and I would say he's not some... I didn't raise them, my kids to go to church, but now I would say he definitely has a strong faith and it's helping him to get through this.
Peter McCormack: 46:39
Okay. How's his mental state? I interviewed Charlie Shrem who you all know of, who also-
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:45
I met Charlie. Sure.
Peter McCormack: 46:46
Yeah. Good guy. He's also been to prison.
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:49
Yeah.
Peter McCormack: 46:49
And that affected him a lot. One of the biggest problems he had was pure boredom.
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:55
Terribly boring.
Peter McCormack: 46:55
Yeah.
Lyn Ulbricht: 46:56
Yes. One thing is Ross does have a few friends who are quite intelligent in this last... this one, so it's better levels of conversation. I mean, a lot, like I said, a lot of the people in the other prison, and that's part of why they're in there, I think is they don't have the education, but there's a lot of people in where he's now that ought to do.
Peter McCormack: 47:14
His mental state is okay?
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:16
Yeah. I mean he... like I was saying, it's tough, but Ross is very intentionally positive, intentionally keeping himself healthy mentally, physically, emotionally.
Peter McCormack: 47:26
Okay and you're getting to see plenty of him.
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:29
Yeah. Which is why I moved here. Especially because the phone calls are so limited.
Peter McCormack: 47:33
Yeah, and how is that time with him these days?
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:35
Oh, it's usually great. I mean Ross and I get along great. Sometimes it's intense because we're talking about different things about his case but I'm always happy to see him. He's always happy to see me. We have... yeah, it's good.
Peter McCormack: 47:46
Okay.
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:47
Yeah.
Peter McCormack: 47:48
Let's talk about the future. Obviously clemency is the option you're fighting for.
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:53
Yes.
Peter McCormack: 47:53
You've managed to build some success in building a network of people around you who support you.
Lyn Ulbricht: 47:58
Yeah, that's been the silver lining. Is all the great people who I've gotten to know, including yourself, who I never would have met. I just want Ross to meet you all but really incredible people who are so great and so principled and are in it a lot mostly for that because they believe in freedom. Some people help me that are personal friends, but mostly it's people who see this as a cause for freedom and against this oppression that's going on.
Peter McCormack: 48:29
Ross himself has a firm belief that maybe one day he will be out.
Lyn Ulbricht: 48:34
Yes, we're optimistic. I mean we have hope. You can't give that up. We do have hope.
Peter McCormack: 48:40
Does he talk about-
Lyn Ulbricht: 48:41
It's people and paperwork. It's possible. It's not like I want to literally move a mountain from here to here. It's someone signing a piece of paper or putting in the right paperwork from wherever.
Peter McCormack: 48:54
Does he talk about what he'd like to do?
Lyn Ulbricht: 48:56
Yeah, I mean he said that for one thing, he would be committed to working for criminal justice reform because of what he's seen and what's happening to people in our prisons and in our justice system and then like I was saying, I think he would really get involved and interested in lots of interesting things with that cryptocurrency and he's a scientist. He was trained in physics. He's not a computer programmer by the way. I don't know what he would do, but I'm sure it'd be interesting. He's very creative thinker. Huh. To creative when he was young but anyway.
Peter McCormack: 49:30
One of the things I can imagine is that quite a toll on the family. I'm aware you obviously of... you have a daughter, and I think she's in Australia.
Lyn Ulbricht: 49:40
She is in Australia.
Peter McCormack: 49:41
Yeah, and we've spoken as well and I think on Facebook or email. Can you talk to me about the impact on the family and yourself, because I'm imagining there's lots of things that go through your mind like you'd love to see Ross get married. You would love to be a grandmother.
Lyn Ulbricht: 50:00
Absolutely. Yes.
Peter McCormack: 50:00
But also there must have been serious financial impact.
Lyn Ulbricht: 50:04
Yes.
Peter McCormack: 50:04
What is the impact on you because this will impact everyone when they lose a family to the system.
Lyn Ulbricht: 50:10
Absolutely. It's devastating and I was warned in the beginning. This is a long haul. You've got to know that this is going to be really a tough road and it really, really is and it's... look, just in regular life it's hard to stay positive sometimes. It's hard to not get upset about things. To have this overlay. The stress of it is intense. I ended up in the hospital. I've ended up... I've had some real challenges and I think because of this stress, and I have to... I'm really trying to work at a balance because it's, I can't keep... I mean I want to constantly be doing what I can do, but at the same time I got to work at a balance and Ross really wants me to too, and that's true for his dad, for his sister.
Lyn Ulbricht: 51:01
It's been really, really tough. It's like a death only you have to keep fighting for the person because they're not dead and desperately and it does. It takes a huge toll on families. I talked to a woman at the prison, she said her kids were getting straight A's before their dad was arrested and now the whole thing's falling apart. This is a common common story. It's very tough.
Peter McCormack: 51:27
One of the last things I want to cover with you is that not everybody is empathetic to Ross's plight and his cause. I've battled people on Twitter.
Lyn Ulbricht: 51:36
Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Peter McCormack: 51:38
I've seen the feedback. What do you say to people who will respond to this and say, well, he did create a website for people to buy drugs and he did commit a crime and surely there's more important things that I could focus my time on. Why should I care about Ross?
Lyn Ulbricht: 51:55
I've often thought like if I weren't his mother and I heard about the case and I heard about him having a double life sentence, what would I think? And I absolutely would think this is outrageous. This is way too much. It's just people should care about this sentence because it sets a precedent in our country that for excessive sentencing.
Peter McCormack: 52:12
It's not just about Ross.
Lyn Ulbricht: 52:12
Absolutely not, and the other thing is yeah, it's so draconian. It's so draconian and yeah, we can argue about, I'm not... hey, look, I'm not defending Silk Road particularly. I'm not certainly not defending drugs or any of that, but let's look at this sentence and what good is it doing and what it's costing monetarily. The taxpayers have spent billions of dollars keeping nonviolent people in cages. It's crazy. Of course a lot of the people that do say these negative things are totally misinformed, including a politician that you... she ended up taking down her tweets I think because you... and she was like making up stuff I couldn't believe.
Peter McCormack: 52:55
I fucking... sorry, I swear and I fucking went after her. She was a-
Lyn Ulbricht: 52:59
You did. It was great.
Peter McCormack: 53:00
What was she?
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:01
She is at Massachusetts, I can't remember her name.
Peter McCormack: 53:04
She was going for Congress for the Democrats and saying she was a bitcoin supporter and then had some anti Ross tweets and I pushed her.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:15
Big time manner. Like she was spreading ridiculous stuff.
Peter McCormack: 53:19
Well, I offered her an interview and she said she wanted it and then she came back and I can't remember exactly what happened. I just called her out on it and then she deleted them all.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:26
Yeah, she-
Peter McCormack: 53:27
But that just shows what bullshit politicians are.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:29
Exactly. Sure.
Peter McCormack: 53:30
She had an opinion and she changed it because she wants votes.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:32
Exactly.
Peter McCormack: 53:33
...and that's the problem with the political system is everything is vote seeking.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:36
She did the whole thing for votes.
Peter McCormack: 53:37
Yeah.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:38
You know, yeah.
Peter McCormack: 53:40
Yeah. Well, listen, you have my full support forever.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:46
Thank you.
Peter McCormack: 53:46
If you want to go and talk somewhere and you're too tied, you can send me instead. You'll always have my support.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:50
I may take you up on that so be careful.
Peter McCormack: 53:51
Well, I'm over here a lot, but know you will always have my support.
Lyn Ulbricht: 53:54
Yeah. Thank you.
Peter McCormack: 53:55
This is personal to me because of, my mother and just the weird chain of events that means we're sat here, but I care about it. This isn't a... let me explain this. I hope you understand. I care about it not because I ultimately care about Ross. I care about this because-
Lyn Ulbricht: 54:12
No, you don't know him. Yeah.
Peter McCormack: 54:13
Well, no. It's not even that. I mean I feel like I know him a little bit, but I care about it because of what it means for the entire prison system and the butterfly effect of so many people being in prison. The impact on children, family, stress-
Lyn Ulbricht: 54:26
Totally.
Peter McCormack: 54:26
...finances. I know there are certain people that should be in prison, and I know there are certain people that it has a burdens and costs on so many people and so much of society that prison reform it's worth fighting for.
Lyn Ulbricht: 54:40
Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 54:40
And for me, Ross's case is just one of many.
Lyn Ulbricht: 54:44
It is, but it's high profile and we're hoping it'll shine a light on it by speaking out. Ross and I both want that.
Peter McCormack: 54:53
If people are listening to this, if they want to find out more information or they want to support you, where would you recommend they go?
Lyn Ulbricht: 55:00
freeross.org, our website and at the bottom there's a footer. You can get in touch with me directly. If you want to help in your state or overall with the people showing up at rallies, it's a big job. I've got a national campaign I'm trying to do and it's basically me and a couple of volunteers that... so that'd be awesome. Please sign the petition and share it and any political connections that anyone has, please let me know. We need to get the attention of President Trump and have him see how unjust the sentence is, what a terrible precedent it sets and how unnecessary it is and hopefully he will commute Ross's sentence.
Peter McCormack: 55:40
Well you have my support forever.
Lyn Ulbricht: 55:42
Thank you.
Peter McCormack: 55:43
You are a friend now.
Lyn Ulbricht: 55:43
Yes. Absolutely.
Peter McCormack: 55:43
I love seeing you.
Lyn Ulbricht: 55:45
Great to see you too.
Peter McCormack: 55:45
And anything you ever need you can reach out to me.
Lyn Ulbricht: 55:47
Thank you so much.