DEF032 - John Shipton Interview

Julian Assange: By His father

Interview date: Tuesday, 10th March 2020
Interview location: London

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with John Shipton. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email us. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, we discuss John & Julian's relationship, Julian's ongoing case and the impact of WikiLeaks.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTION

Peter McCormack 00:02:45:
Good morning, John.

John Shipton 00:02:46:
Good morning, Peter. It's good to be with you here amongst the McCormack gang.

Peter McCormack 00:02:53:
Yeah. So it's an Irish name actually. Some people think it's Scottish, but it's an Irish name.

John Shipton 00:02:58:
An Irish name, yeah.

Peter McCormack 00:02:59:
An Irish name. My father's Irish. He's actually in Donegal now, he retired back to Ireland.

John Shipton 00:03:03:
In Donegal?

Peter McCormack 00:03:04:
Yeah, in Donegal.

John Shipton 00:03:05:
My mother is Irish, the Kelly family.

Peter McCormack 00:03:08:
Okay.

John Shipton 00:03:09:
But I believe the Kelly's are like Smith's, they're simply everywhere.

Peter McCormack 00:03:13:
They are. There's a lot of Kelly's in Ireland. And if your mother was Siobhan Kelly, that would be a hell of an Irish name.

John Shipton 00:03:20:
Oh, she was Mirriam actually.

Peter McCormack 00:03:22:
Mirriam, that's a good name.

John Shipton 00:03:22:
Mirriam Veldon Kelly.

Peter McCormack 00:03:26:
My son is Connor McCormack, which is about as-

John Shipton 00:03:28:
Connor, yeah, that's it.

Peter McCormack 00:03:28:
Yeah.

John Shipton 00:03:28:
Yeah, that slips right in solidly Irish. Yeah.

Peter McCormack 00:03:33:
Well, thank you for coming today. You're obviously very busy, you've got a lot on. There's a lot I want to cover with you. I'm conscious of not trying to interview Julian via you, I want this to be an interview with you, and if I slip into that, I apologise. But I do want to know more about you. I do so think before we start talking about Julian and the case, and where we're at with this, it will be important for people who listen to this just to know a very small amount of the background, because you don't share a surname with Julian. So rather than I explain it, if you can just give a very brief explanation of your relationship as Julian's biological father, that would be helpful.

John Shipton 00:04:12:
Okay. Well, Julian, his mum, Christine, married a friend of mine, Brett Assange, and set up a little family. And that liaison I think from memory, lasted eight years, and Julian had a warm relationship with Brett, as did I.

Peter McCormack 00:04:39:
Fantastic, that's good to know. And you have a very close relationship with Julian now, you're here in the UK supporting him. But it would be nice to know a little bit about yourself John. I've read that you're an anti-war activist, but just tell me a bit about yourself, let me understand you as a person as well.

John Shipton 00:04:56:
Oh, well I was in the building industry most of my life, and then as I became more experienced, I moved into organisational roles. I studied architecture at the University of New South Wales for a couple of years, and then moved onto more worked, overwhelmed by offers of work, and opportunities to work in the building industry, so I just went on with that.

John Shipton 00:05:27:
As for activism, I've always felt nauseated by State cruelty, and realised pretty early on that, now, wars are declared against civil populations. This is sort of a foul circumstance that needs resistance. So the bombing campaigns of the Second World War illustrate to us that in Churchill's words, the German public needs to feel, or must feel the pressure of war. I think that, that's an unsatisfactory circumstance, so I have put a lot of energy into resisting wars. And the final one, the Iraq war, the invasion of Iraq has murdered a million and a half people, and so it's clear to us that we've become barbaric. I am not a pacifist, but if you want peace, you must be prepared to fight. However, that doesn't include barbarity of declaring war on civil populations, and murdering as many people as a matter of policy, and destroying infrastructure as a matter of policy, and siege sanctions as a matter of policy which murdered half a million children in Iraq, before the 2003 invasion.

John Shipton 00:07:33:
So that's really a soul-felt fundamental attitude of mine, that courage in men allows them to defend their homes, and fight other organisations which wish to plunder their homes. But it does not include the slaughter of innocence in any way whatsoever.

Peter McCormack 00:08:09:
I mean, I could probably sit here and interview you for hours on that subject alone, and it's a fascinating subject with many areas I wrestle with myself, but as you said before we started recording, you have a job at the moment and it's quite interesting that you refer to it as a job, and that is to support and secure the freedom of Julian. So we will focus on that, and perhaps another time, perhaps after Julian is freed with hope that you and I would maybe have a chance to sit down and discuss something else, but how is Julian now?

John Shipton 00:08:43:
Well, he's on medication. He's circumstances are constrained in as much as that he has controlled moves throughout the prison. He's in a maximum security prison, he spends 20 hours a day in his cell. This is an improvement upon the circumstance previously, where he was in a hospital ward with two debilitated and mad people, and spending up to 23 hours a day in his cell. This improvement came about... Extraordinary it is. It came about from a petition from the prisoners, three petitions in fact came from the prisoners, in order that he be moved out of the circumstance of no society into a ward of 40 other prisoners.

Peter McCormack 00:09:45:
Because without any access to society, that can affect your mental health, and my assumption is that this is something that's been... he suffered from for years being in Ecuador in Embassy. I guess he didn't have any form of society there?

John Shipton 00:10:02:
Well, the bitter truth is that, the Crown Prosecuting Service of the United Kingdom in conjunction with the Swedish Prosecuting Authority and the Colonial Foreign Office, made every effort to keep Julian in the Embassy for as long as possible. This is revealed in the FOIs, wherein in 2013, the Swedish Prosecuting Authority wanted to throw in the towel. The Crown Prosecuting Service under Paul Close, wrote back saying, "You're not getting cold feet are you? There's more to this than a simple extradition." So we have documentary evidence of their participation in keeping Julian in the Embassy.

John Shipton 00:10:57:
I'll remind you that, Julian and his lawyers, fought two cases to force the Swedish Prosecuting Authority to bring the case forward, as is required in their regulations. Eventually, the Appeal Court of Sweden, ordered the prosecutor to interview Julian in the Embassy, which was done and the case was dropped. There have been four prosecutors, the case has been dropped three times, it's been nine years, and it only took eight years to put a man on the moon. It's appalling. It's a preliminary investigation of allegations taking nine years, and dropped three times during that nine years.

Peter McCormack 00:11:54:
Did strategically to keep him in the Ecuadorian Embassy, it's almost possible, was this to break down his mental health to test his will?

John Shipton 00:12:03:
It's the determination to ruin, destroy Julian, and it continues to this day. Julian is in a maximum setting. He's on remand. That is, he's innocent. He's in the maximum security prison, wherein you have to go through a procedure to visit. He's allowed only two visits a week. Previous to that, he was only allowed two visits a month. Julian has no access to media, all of his moves in the prison are controlled moves. The last visit to Court when the hearing began, after it was finished, Julian was put in five different holding cells, handcuffed nine times, three times strip-searched, and dispossessed of his Court papers.

John Shipton 00:13:11:
A complaint received the answer that this is normal practice. I presume it was normal practice in desperate places like Nazi Germany, but it ought not to be normal practice in the United Kingdom. So it's a deliberate effort to isolate Julian from his support, and continue the ceaseless psychological torture that Neals Mills the rapporteur on torture from the United Nations, has documented and submitted to the Swedish Prosecuting Authority and the Crown Prosecuting Service.

Peter McCormack 00:14:02:
You get to talk to Julian I'm assuming, and I'm assuming you get to see him. How has his mental health changed over the years, and is he able to do anything to protect himself, because I listened to interviews with him on the way down to here, just to hear him again? They're old interviews, and he was very articulate, he's very detailed in his responses to the questions. How is he now?

John Shipton 00:14:33:
Well, he's fighting for his life, so it tends to focus the mind on you're immediate problems. However, nine years of isolation, and increasing trajectory and intensity of psychological torture, this is documented by two experts on psychological torture, doctors and Neals Mills an expert, take their toll both physically and mentally. And it takes a long, long while to recover. The Crown Prosecuting Service and the Colonial Foreign Office, are only interested in one thing, expediency within their relationship with the United States Department of Justice, and that expediency in no way considers the human rights of Julian Assange, or the ordinary due process regulations that govern those two institutions. They're just not interested. What they're interested in, is the expediency of their relationship with the United States and the Justice Department in Washington.

Peter McCormack 00:16:11:
What is it, John, like for you, being the father of Julian, and how do you see him as a human? You know, somebody like myself would see him as somebody whose influenced the world, changed the world, influenced how we see the behaviour of the State, some of the things that happened that we weren't previously aware of, I wouldn't say with a perfect track record, but a very interesting track record, and somebody I hold for many reasons in high regard. But you're his father, how do you see him in this world, and what is it like for you being his father, going through this experience?

John Shipton 00:16:49:
Oh you know, Julian is a sweet-natured man, and funny. He also has this capacity to be able to give you information without sounding like he's lecturing you. He simplifies it, and it becomes... it feels a mutual effort, even though he's outlining something that he knows well. So it's a lovely method of teaching, very attractive, that you don't feel you're being lectured. He's no longer funny, but now he will laugh at wry jokes, and he's prematurely aged and lost about 15 kilos. His weight is stabilised now fortunately.

John Shipton 00:17:43:
So what it's like for me? Well, I'm very proud of Julian. And the tremendous gift... Without information, without facts, without knowing where the sun comes up and goes down again, we're pretty lost. And without having facts to chat amongst ourselves, and filter out actuality, we're pretty lost. So Julian and WikiLeaks, have given to us access to materials that will show us what sordid deals that our government has made with other governments, who is likely to betray us, where the murders taken place, who did them, so we can see...

John Shipton 00:18:59:
I'll give you some good examples just there short. The Chagos Islanders were dispossessed and taken to Mauritius dumped there, all of them, in order that the UK government give land, and island, to the United States to build an air force base called Diego Garcia. With the information in the Cables, which is searchable on the WikiLeaks site, the Chagos Islanders were able to take a case before the International Court of Justice, and win. There are a good few examples of this, where Cables or information on WikiLeaks, has been used in cases up to the Supreme Court level in the United Kingdom. A very, very important gift. It allows us to know the geopolitical disposition of the world and how it came about. Very important if you're going to make any decisions whatsoever for yourself, and your family, and your community.

John Shipton 00:20:21:
So I'm full of admiration for the access to those great profound gifts. Though that's my position, and I admire Julian immensely, and the group that he works with equally.

Peter McCormack 00:20:45:
But as his father, you've watched him be put through quite an experience this last few years. And as a very minor example, I mentioned before we started, I've just been up to Venezuela, and when I told my father he didn't want me to go. He just said, "Don't go, it's not worth it, it's not worth the risk." Are there times where you've wished Julian would act differently, or has it come to be the situation where you have had to let him go and make his own decisions?

John Shipton 00:21:16:
Oh, I never... My family doesn't involve themselves with each other in that way. We don't give each other advice, we just relate how life experiences effected us. And whatever adventure... Well, within moral grounds, whatever adventure you embark upon, you have... we support each other. So to illustrate, none of the men, other than Julian's brothers, or half-brothers, or Julian, have ever complained to me about their circumstance, even if they've been in pretty bad circumstances like Julian, or some other, like Gabriel. Not once, not even last Christmas, the last Christmas when Julian was quite isolated, completely isolated in the Embassy. No complaint.

John Shipton 00:22:26:
We sat down and had Christmas dinner together, and as usual we gossip about our children and their mothers, and friends, and so on. So the warmth of ordinary human relationships, is what fills most of our conversation. And then after that we speak about practical matters, where I'm going next, or who I could see to advance his case.

Peter McCormack 00:23:00:
You must worry for him though?

John Shipton 00:23:03:
Well, when this is... You'll probably have the experience yourself. When you have children you begin your worries, and they don't stop.

Peter McCormack 00:23:15:
Oh, yeah. So I have... I mean, I've got a 15-year-old son and a 9-year-old daughter, and I was chatting to my dad about this because, when I was about 10 my dad was 40, I saw this big grown man that I looked up to, and now I'm 40 and I don't feel like I am that big grown man. I still feel like my dad is, and I said that to my dad, and then he said, "Look, the funny thing is, you never stop parenting because Peter, I'm always 30 years ahead of you. So wherever you're at, I've had 30 years more experience, so you're always going to be coming to me." And he made that point to me. I guess, do you have that relationship, does Julian come to you for advice still?

John Shipton 00:23:52:
No, never.

Peter McCormack 00:23:53:
He's beyond that?

John Shipton 00:23:56:
None of my children come to me for advice, or if I'm tempted by vanity to give advice, they put a straight halt to that.

Peter McCormack 00:24:16:
Just referring back to when you've talked about the information that Julian's made publicly available, some people have criticised certain information that was made public under the name of journalism, that the release of certain people's names and such, it was highly risky and it revealed sources that maybe shouldn't have been. That's one of the main criticisms I've seen of Julian, and I go back and forth with this, but the question I'm really coming to is, within the sphere of activity that Julian's been involved in, do you ever believe that a line has been crossed, or do you think there is a rule of law that needs respecting in certain areas that maybe hasn't been?

John Shipton 00:25:06:
Well, specific to what WikiLeaks and Julian have done, so the criticism that you mentioned is a really good question. It was answered comprehensively in the second day of hearing in the Court recently by the defense, that in the first place, the Cables were being redacted and examined with Julian in cooperation with 90 other media organisations, and the State Department, and the Americans, the data, the dumping of the entire case of the Cables came about when a man named David Lee and Luke Harding published a book with the pass phrase as the heading of a chapter. And in the index, the password was referenced. A betrayal of declaration by David Lee, who received the pass phrase under a promise that he would only use it for the Guardian Newspaper, but he immediately passed it on to the New York Times. I mean, it's just squalled, unfortunately now retired.

John Shipton 00:26:45:
So the pass phrase being out there, was picked up by a German newspaper Die Tag, and then Der Spiegel, and finally Krypton Anti-secrecy Organisation based in New York. The Cables were published, the case in its entirety by Krypton. Julian meanwhile, had rung the State Department and said, "They're out there, they've been released by... The pass phrase has been released by a leak, and they're out there." But his warnings were ignored. It's just a gross lie. The other day I was questioned on this by a person who quoted some officials from the United States, saying that this had endangered sources and so on. I pointed out to them that it was simply a lie, WikiLeaks and Julian didn't release the case.

John Shipton 00:28:01:
I also pointed out, that it's nauseating and beyond obscene, grotesque that these officials who have involved themselves in the supervision of the destruction of Iraq and seven other countries, but let's say just Iraq, the murder of a million or so people, poor things, criticise falsely Julian, it's just so grotesque, who has been locked up for 10 years, and what he could pick up was a pencil or press a key on the computer. It's beyond grotesque. Their language, the English language in my capacity of it, can't stretch far enough to put those two things together. A man who handling a pencil locked up for nine years, criticised and accused of maybe committing a crime, by people who have committed war crimes and destroyed entire countries. Just, how do you cope with that sort of stuff from these people who... How do they actually get jobs, these demoralised robots that wonder around the Washington Beltway, and get their utterances into the television station to deceive and lie. It's just beyond grotesque.

Peter McCormack 00:29:57:
You obviously have a long history of disdain for governments, and politicians, and the powers that be.

John Shipton 00:30:05:
I want to correct that if I may.

Peter McCormack 00:30:07:
Okay.

John Shipton 00:30:07:
I don't-

Peter McCormack 00:30:07:
Please do, yeah.

John Shipton 00:30:08:
I understand organisation, I understand that they can be fresh, clean and attend to their legislation carefully and accurately. I understand that, that is a possibility, and I insist in my work, or agitation that, that happens, but that we are now in a period of astonishing corruption. There is a... The City of London, holds in trust in six offshore tax havens, the equivalent in private money of the entirety of the Continent of Africa's public debt. More money than the entirety sourced from Africa in semi-private accounts. The facilitation of crime for the profit of the City of London, it's just nauseating, and there are laws to prevent this, plenty of laws that can be applied, but they're just not applied.

John Shipton 00:31:43:
Oh, we are embroiled in an era of astonishing corruption, the treatment of Julian is one example, or sorry, an icon of that corruption of administration, of regulations and laws. It sounds as though we are in a... You know, I'm describing sort of a hell on Earth really. I don't want to bring despair to anybody, just that this is the circumstances that we find ourselves in. And you find fermentation throughout the entire world to resist it, and governments overthrown, and the people... social democrat parties everywhere throughout the world that reject it because they're not any longer social democrat parties. The right is the populist parties, rise up to attempt to right this situation. Sometimes they are sincere, other times they're not. But this fermentation will produce the changes that are required, because under the current circumstances, the societies will become like France, ungovernable.

Peter McCormack 00:33:27:
Why do you think we've got to this stage of, you referred to I think twice, astonishing levels of corruption? Do you think this is just a fault of human nature, and we've lost the checks and balances?

John Shipton 00:33:39:
Well you know, human nature's pretty variable and it adopts... it has to adapt and adopt to circumstances that it finds itself in. But I think... I feel that things are in cycles, that the cycles are very broad, and the repair process has started. Like over the last 10 years, the United States with its vessels, including the United Kingdom, has rewritten all of its extradition treaties to the advantage of the United States. So the United States doesn't allow extradition for political offenses, but that's because it attracts and calls into itself, activists who can destable or work against the current government in a state that they currently don't like.

John Shipton 00:34:45:
So this enables the harvesting by judicial abduction, of journalists, publishers and publications on one avenue, the other avenue of technicians, Meng Wanzhou of Huawei, Mike Lynch of the United Kingdom, and Olive Binny in Ecuador an Internet genius. The other avenue is, the Tuesday Kill List as it was known under Obama, 446 people extraditionally murdered over Obama's regime, it's still in use. The murder of Soleimani the other day, invited to a peace conference then murdered with seven other men. So these are means of disciplining vessel States that the United States uses.

John Shipton 00:36:02:
Also, this is an area that I'm not completely familiar with, but the trade agreements under the TPP require, that national laws be subject or surrendered to trade agreements between corporations. So a corporation may have a subsidiary in France, but it's origin is in the United States. If France makes a law, as Mexico did, that Coca Cola has too much sugar in it, and can't be sold above a certain amount of sugar, the corporation can launch an action against the government to its own benefit, and have the Nation State fined. And I think from memory, Coca Cola launched such an action against the Mexican government, and won $80 million, even though the Nation of Mexico was intent upon the collective health of the people of Mexico.

John Shipton 00:37:28:
So these three great avenues, the repression of publications, the harvesting of technology, the murder of those that they don't like extraditionally, and the enforcing of corporate agreements over and above national preferences.

Peter McCormack 00:37:56:
So you brought up Soleimani there, the very interesting point here essentially, assassinated, and I followed a lot of the coverage of that as well. A man himself, who also has many critics, has facilitated, you could argue, destabilising force in the Middle East as well. Do you ever see scenarios where intervention is right, is justified? And example I would give, would possibly be when Vietnam went into Cambodia, which felt like to me, was a situation where that would have been a justified situation. More of a broader question, do you see a need in the world we live to have a military, and do you think there are situations where it is justified to go in and intervene, or do you believe that every single nation should be sovereign and it's down to the people of their country?

John Shipton 00:38:57:
Well with internal affairs, of course it's down to the people within the country, within the nation, State. Yeah, that's very important. It was established in Germany a few 100 years ago, after the 30 years war. Very important. You've got to make your own decisions and look after your people, and foster your culture, and so on. And then arrangements between nations, are governed by their interests, and as a collective group, they make laws of how to go about furthering their interest in civilised discourse. There are at times, when disputes because of history, or because of phenomena that we don't understand, or because of agitations that rocket through an entire society, that those laws and regulations become disused. But we have set up the United Nations to make for the most part, civilised discourse, and for the most part you can see these mechanisms work if you had SALT two, had SALT one, the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties, and many other treaties that govern relationships between States. Very important. Vital in fact. 

Peter McCormack 00:40:47:
But do you think there are scenarios where intervention is justified?

John Shipton 00:40:52:
Well, if it's under the auspices of the United Nations, I imagine that intervention can come about, yes. But it must be a collective decision of the Nation States representing the people, or assisting in righting a heinous situation.

Peter McCormack 00:41:27:
I sometimes feel myself, following the United Nations, that the structure of the permanent member's voting rights on the Security Council, almost makes it impossible for certain decisions to be made because we often see it's usually Russia versus United States opinion on, it doesn't matter whether what part of the world we're looking at, and it feels like it's ineffective now in making decisions because of that. Do you share those frustrations, or does it not worry you?

John Shipton 00:42:02:
No, you know, it's a human construction, it's not perfect, but it's better than not being. Pretty clear, it's better than it not being. It's better that they go and argue the toss there, than use atom bombs or whatever, launch another invasion, although the United States can never launch another invasion, and Russia can't project power. It just has its own area that you can look after successfully.

Peter McCormack 00:42:41:
Um-

John Shipton 00:42:43:
It just... Look, I like the statement that, if you want peace, be prepared to fight. And secondly, Heraclitus' observation, or Heracleitus if you want, "War is the mother of all things." Now that doesn't necessarily mean fighting your neighboring State, what it means is, that the battle within is war to settle parts of the soul, or to learn patience, or to learn faith in life, or to learn how to order your affairs so that you don't have unnecessary conflict with others. All of those very difficult things, particularly patience, and particularly faith in life. They are internal wars, and that will be the mother of how to approach difficulties in life, and how to love your friends and family more deeply.

Peter McCormack 00:43:58:
Just soaking that one up. I'm just going to kind of revert back to Julian, because that's what we're here about.

John Shipton 00:44:04:
Yes. 

Peter McCormack 00:44:07:
Has Julian changed your world view, or your opinions significantly? Has anything he's done, shifted your world view or significantly affected your opinion on anything?

John Shipton 00:44:20:
Well, yes I was, like Trafigura dumping E-waste of the coast of Africa, the East Coast of Africa, and the consequence, the coastal villages suffering from environmental poison, struck me as just, well, you can't go lower than that. Though I didn't up to that stage, think that people would embark upon that sort of failed venture. And what has happened to Julian, has changed my expectations from government. Government will only obey its own regulations, if we absolutely insist they do. As citisens, we have to... we are now forced to absolutely insist that they obey their own regulations, and forego the privilege of disobeying their own regulations. Of course, it's a privilege that States like.

Peter McCormack 00:45:43:
And I guess here, you're referring to the UK government?

John Shipton 00:45:47:
Well, all of them really. My own government here, yeah.

Peter McCormack 00:45:51:
Oh yes, I mean the Australian government has, you know? One of the things you have when you're working with a lot of bitcoin, is you have this high on this kind of dystopian, Orwellian future that seems to be playing out, and I've observed in Australia the tax on the free press, and just many other things which I find very surprising for knowing Australians, having met Australians all my life to see what path it's going down, but it's something that's playing out in most Western countries. The UK I'm very concerned about, infringements on our civil liberties, the use of surveillance technology, the attack on free speech. I feel like we're heading down a very, very bad path here. But specifically in reference to Julian, what are the things that the UK are not being held to, and people listening to this, what should they be concerned about-

John Shipton 00:46:47:
Well-

John Shipton 00:46:49:
Julian has done... He's innocent, so the United Nations working group on arbitrary detention made a declaration that Julian was arbitrarily detained in the United Kingdom, and that Julian ought to be able to travel across the United Kingdom and to take up the asylum that Ecuador had offered, which the United Kingdom refused. In February 2018, they brought out a supplementary report in even firmer language, the United Kingdom appealed, and the appeal failed. So that's one.

John Shipton 00:47:39:
The next is the rapporteur on torture, Neals Mills' report describing one after the other, after the other. The due process misfeasances, malfeasances, distortions, the involvement of the Crown Prosecuting Service with the Swedish Prosecuting Authority in a conspiracy documented by FOIs to keep Julian banged up in the Ecuadorian Embassy forever, or until he had to be carried out on a litter, these are deliberate. Absolutely deliberate distortions. Now the great... It's a magnificent gift the English people's made to world civilisation, was the law as a shield between the people and the Sovereign. It works both ways. The Sovereign or the State has to obey the law, and the people have to obey the law. That arrangement is a tremendous gift to the world, to all civilisation. A civilisational gift par excellence. That gift is progressively being disregarded, and we as people, as citisens, are required to insist that our elites obey that fundamental relationship between the State and the people. The law is a shield.

John Shipton 00:49:27:
Now, in the case of Julian and others, that shield has been turned into a weapon against people, so this is what we must rectify, a very simple thing. The other day in Court, the Magna Carta was quoted, it's 790 years old I think, it was quoted as an instrument still in force. It still has the force of law, so we must insist that the government, our governments, obey this. That's what they are required to do.

John Shipton 00:50:09:
The other thing which is a bit more difficult, but is our secret services are there to ensure that excess... or one of their duties and obligations, is to ensure that excessive leverage is not placed against parliamentarians and cabinet members. But they seem to have turned it on its head, and use in many circumstances, excessive leverage to embarrass or to manipulate parliaments and civil servants, and governments. So we have to begin... Well sorry, I don't like the word have to, but we are required as citizens to insist that our secret services protect our members of government, our elites from excessive leverage from the human mistakes that we all make, our secret services have to ask that they resign, and protect them from excessive leverage from others who are in possession of that sort of information.

John Shipton 00:51:36:
So those two elements, really important. The Magna Carta still exists, it's still a living document. It's still enshrined the laws of the United Kingdom. It is a shield, a substantial protection, a great civilisational gift that protects the people from the Sovereign, and orders the Sovereign to obey those laws, and orders the people to similarly obey those laws. We are required to simply say to our governments, "Well those are the laws that you exist under, and we want you to obey them."

Peter McCormack 00:52:20:
Okay. Could you update on the current legal position? We've obviously heard the first stage of the extradition herein, can you talk me through what happened, and were we are currently?

John Shipton 00:52:30:
On the first day, the prosecution outlined, or stated that it was a simple case of criminality, that there was no political reasons, there's no political circumstance, because it's in the treaty that if it's a political matter you can't be extradited. So they insist it was just common criminal. And they also insisted an oddity, that because the 2003 treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom, ratified in 2007, didn't contain the wording, "No extradition for political reasons," that parliament consequently didn't want that. Which is very difficult. I mean, it doesn't make sense, because a ratification of a treaty has to blend with local laws, within the laws of the United Kingdom. So it just simply doesn't make sense.

John Shipton 00:53:55:
So those two elements of the... Oh, and also of course, they trotted out that stuff again how the data, what they called the data dumping, endangered sources. It's ridiculous, because Robert Gates in testimony before Congress, Ex Secretary of Defense, stated that, "Is it embarrassing? Yes. Is it awkward? Yes. Did it cause us any damage? No." And there are many other such statements. So the American case is a fraud against the Court, a complete fraud. No foundations in any direction. The surrender last week of the United States to the Taliban, not even a State instrumentality in Doha signing a peace treaty, an 18-year-long war that everybody knew was failing in 2010 when WikiLeaks released the Iraq War Files. Failing in 2010, and they signed a peace treaty with the Taliban, not even a State instrumentality of Afghanistan, leaving out of the negotiations the Afghani government... the current Afghani government, must be extraordinary, like sort of a farce really.

John Shipton 00:55:40:
But we can see how, if I can describe this carefully, in 2010, the Afghan War files were released, they're in searchable forms. Slowly, from 2010 onwards, the smart phone and the laptop became common to everybody. So you can search. So the permutation of the technology... Sorry, the filtering in of the technology and the permutation of the facts in the Iraq War file, and the unfolding of history, the continuing unfolding of history, allowed it to become common knowledge that the Afghan War was a failure. That there was no possibility of the United States and NATO rebuilding Iraq. It was just impossible. So it's become colon.... So the historical resistance to the ongoing participation in the Afghan War, becomes an attribute of the presidential election race, so Mr. Trump seeks a way out of Afghanistan.

John Shipton 00:57:14:
So this is... I think I've described that fairly clearly, that WikiLeaks releasing and Chelsea, and Julian, releasing the Afghan War files, the increase in the use of the Internet and it's facilities, the passing of further history showing more murders of wedding parties, and funeral cortege, have clearly demonstrated to all of us in a historical fashion, that it's over, that it's time to go, that it was never a good thing in the first place. So this is a magnificent gift of WikiLeaks, and the engineering marvel of the Internet, and the unfolding of history have begun to bring to an end an unnecessary involvement of the United States and it's government in the destruction of Afghanistan.

Peter McCormack 00:58:26:
Okay. So-

John Shipton 00:58:27:
Answer that one.

Peter McCormack 00:58:28:
Well, so we come to that point that, if all information is free, we have a better way to judge the world and judge the decision making... Like, it's the importance of transparency, to see behind the-

John Shipton 00:58:45:
Duplicity.

Peter McCormack 00:58:45:
... duplicity, yes, of our leaders. I mean, one of the most fascinating ones was, the release of the DNC emails, and some of the double dealings there. It exposes, or it holds people to a higher standard if their communications and their behaviors are transparent.

John Shipton 00:59:07:
Well you know, the crumbling façade of the Clinton Foundation, where bit by bit it becomes transparent, and piece by piece we see these people for what they actually are, and that Mrs. Clinton ran around the world selling participation in decision making for money, and made decisions for donations totalling $1.5 billion. The Australian government encouraged by an ex-foreign minister, whose name I'd like to forget, Alexander Downer, he encouraged the Australian government to give $25 million, plus a bit more, to the Clinton Foundation. And then immediately Mr. Trump was elected, that gift from the Australian government was canceled. These people, this rotting façade of criminality that was the Clinton Foundation and it's relationship with the DNC, it's a crippling burden upon the American body politics in my view.

Peter McCormack 01:00:40:
Yeah. You also mentioned Trump. One of the most fascinating things that came out of the extradition hearings for me was, that President Trump would offer Julian a pardon if he said that Russia had nothing to do with the leaked Teller emails. What is the background to this, because-

John Shipton 01:00:56:
I don't know. That's as much as I know with Dana Ruchrabacker, but witness testimony will be... So you'll be able to hear the people who witnessed those offers at the full hearing in May, but that's as much as I know.

Peter McCormack 01:01:15:
Okay.

John Shipton 01:01:16:
Yeah.

Peter McCormack 01:01:16:
Well, I'll be looking out for that. So how much progress was made in this first set of hearings, and as we move on to... It's May, right, the second round?

John Shipton 01:01:26:
Yeah.

Peter McCormack 01:01:27:
Will we have a conclusion in May?

John Shipton 01:01:30:
Well, yes. Judge Baraitser has given three more weeks for the hearing, I suppose it might run over a week, and then she will make... the Judge will make her decision. The case is really... Julian's case is very, very strong. It's an insurmountable burden for the prosecutor, having looked at both sides very carefully. So I imagine that Judge Baraitser will decide, dependent upon certain circumstances, that Julian not be extradited.

Peter McCormack 01:02:21:
Your very confident?

John Shipton 01:02:22:
Well, based on the case.

Peter McCormack 01:02:24:
Ah, but are you confident that there isn't untoward pressure coming from other directions into her decision?

John Shipton 01:02:34:
Well, I'm sure that... I'm certain that aspects of the Colonial Foreign Office and the Crown Prosecuting Service would be chagrined deeply, if Vanessa Baraitser decides not to extradite Julian. But the law is the law, and I'm sure... I feel certain that with the intensity of observers all over Europe, the intensity of the observation of observers all over Europe, and the political circumstance where the government and Whitehall want to rewrite the extradition treaty because it's unbalanced, I feel certain if those circumstances are obeyed, Julian will not be extradited, will be free. Yeah.

Peter McCormack 01:03:31:
It would certainly be a scar on the reputation of the United Kingdom, should he not.

John Shipton 01:03:36:
Yeah, look, this gives us an opportunity to have a look at something here, it's really interesting, that it's in the interests of Europe, publishers, publications and journalists, to ensure that Julian is not extradited. It's in their interest, because as we've mentioned they will be intimidated to publish information, and have information to discuss amongst ourselves as the ordinary way to go about doing things... the best ordinary way to go about doing things.

John Shipton 01:04:15:
Similarly, the United Kingdom has two profound areas to look at. One, is that each year in the City of London, about a trillion dollars worth of contracts are made, and those contracts sometimes fall into dispute, and they are adjudicated in the English Courts. If the English Courts get themselves a reputation similar to the Swedish Prosecuting Authority, who is going to write contracts in the City of London? Nobody, they'll hesitate all the time. That's one.

John Shipton 01:04:52:
The other profound area, is that the conversations and knowledge of the English people... sorry, the people of the United Kingdom, it depends upon what's published in the newspapers, and what's published on the Internet. If that is constrained, then they're unable to make decisions in their own interests. Their interests are subsumed into the preferences of Washington, a most unreliable circumstance. Everybody knows that Washington is not agreement capable, they can't make agreements are mutual... that serve mutual interests. So in order to pursue your own interests, you just simply have to say, "No," that's all, "Julian won't be extradited, and we will not have our publications and publishers intimidated by the fear of being judicially kidnapped, or abducted."

Peter McCormack 01:06:08:
So assuming... Let's make a confident assumption that Julian wins his case, and he is freed, will he ever really be a free man? Because my assumption is he's always going to be pursued again, and again, because I can't see him ever stopping doing his work for WikiLeaks. Right now obviously, he's... I don't know any ability he has to have any oversight of the work at WikiLeaks right now, but my assumption is, on release from prison he would want to get straight back to work. I mean, you might tell me I'm wrong, but does he face a life of these attacks by State bodies forever?

John Shipton 01:06:49:
Oh you know, from a father's point of view, Julian has made his gift, has made his name, has shown his capacities, it's now time for him to rest and recuperate, which will take a couple of years. And I hope that after, say for example taking up the humanitarian visa offered by Switzerland, who specialise in... It's offered by Geneva Canton, their specialty is in treating people who have undergone psychological torture, taking up that humanitarian visa, getting well again, doing ordinary things of life, like seeing the kids, attending birthday parties, just sitting in the café watching the passing parade, chatting, a bit of gossip here and there, indulging the curiosity again, rather than constantly having to focus on this, that and the other to protect your life. Just ordinary things.

John Shipton 01:07:58:
And then as a father, I hope he... I imagine a professorship of some sort, for five years, might be very satisfying.

Peter McCormack 01:08:13:
How do you think Julian will be seen in future years? How will people look back on him? Do you think he will be ultimately seen as a hero, or do you think he will always split opinion, there will be those who see him as a hero, and others that maybe still see him as a villain?

John Shipton 01:08:28:
Well, that question is a good question, and it allows us to develop some insights. The first off thing, is that the smearing and mobbing of Julian, has been a deliberate policy of the United Nations States of the West, particularly the English-speaking world... in particular the English-speaking world. And that has been done in order that the crimes, so for example, in collateral murder, you see the helicopter pilots.

Peter McCormack 01:09:04:
Of course, yeah.

John Shipton 01:09:05:
Two war crimes, not just one. Not the first-

Peter McCormack 01:09:07:
Well it was the second one that was worse, when he was-

John Shipton 01:09:10:
Yes.

Peter McCormack 01:09:10:
... crawling and went-

John Shipton 01:09:13:
Yes.

Peter McCormack 01:09:13:
... to pick him up with the van, yeah.

John Shipton 01:09:13:
And the two kids, the two children in the van.

Peter McCormack 01:09:17:
Yeah.

John Shipton 01:09:18:
Yeah, so that is the proper focus, is the war crimes, but authorities have changed the focus onto whether Julian is this or that. And that smearing and mobbing, is progressively losing its force as it emerges, and fully emerges in the testimony in Court and elsewhere, what actually happened. So Julian will be seen for what he did, and that is give these gifts to us to utilise in whatever fashion our energies, and curiosity, and tasks allow. So for my part, I think Julian will be amongst the proper nobility of the West. The proper nobility, not inherited nobility, but the... an aristocracy of the spirit, which will include Julian and many others who have fought to bring righteousness and truth, and good governance.

Peter McCormack 01:10:54:
Well, I think that is a very good place to conclude this.

John Shipton 01:10:57:
Yeah.

Peter McCormack 01:10:57:
But I will just ask, just finally, if people are interested in the case and want to find out more, want to support Julian or yourself, how could they do that?

John Shipton 01:11:08:
Well, my thing, we've run Assangecampaign, one word, .org.au, but there is also campaigns localised in England, and that's called dea... I'll text the-

Peter McCormack 01:11:28:
Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.

John Shipton 01:11:34:
Yeah, I'll text Peter, I can't remember it actually. Yeah, thanks Peter.

Peter McCormack 01:11:40:
No, no worries. Look, I've really enjoyed this. I wish you luck. I will pay close attention in May. I hope you get the outcome you desire. I hold hope. I'd love to do this again with you sometime, perhaps-

John Shipton 01:11:54:
Yeah. I hope Peter, that you do, and look, register as a journo. If you can't register as a journo, come and give me a tap on the shoulder and I'll find one of the family seats for you.

Peter McCormack 01:12:06:
Please do. Yeah, I would love to. I need to register as a journo anyway. I nearly got arrested when I was just now in Turkey. I went up to the Greece border, but on the way we got pulled over by the police and they wanted credentials of being a journalist, and I didn't have them. Luckily my camera guy did, but I need to actually get registered now to protect myself, because I'm doing some lunatic things without really thinking them through.

John Shipton 01:12:30:
No well, come along.

Peter McCormack 01:12:31:
I will do.

John Shipton 01:12:31:
It's... I can't say how vital it is that you guys put in an appearance.

Peter McCormack 01:12:37:
No I will do. But I appreciate your time, but I would love to talk to you. I've got things that I want to talk to you about outside of Julian, I want to-

John Shipton 01:12:44:
Okay.

Peter McCormack 01:12:44:
... pick your brains. Hopefully, sometime later in the year, we could do that.

John Shipton 01:12:47:
Just give me a ring, and I'm here.

Peter McCormack 01:12:49:
Great, thank you. Well, I wish you all the best.

John Shipton 01:12:51:
Thank you Peter.